They’re de-humanised in so many ways, nowhere to keep their stuff, no showers or even drinking water after sport, lunch is gladiatorial, theft is rife. But it’s the no right of reply to chronic unfairness that wore down my kids. Luckily for mine we could give them a contrast and context at home. Others were just abandoned. Woeful.
Oh god yes the no right of reply is so problematic. It feels like a prison state - put up and shut up, keep your head down, get through it. I don’t remember this as my own experience but mine was a privileged one so I can’t truly compare.
It may have been fee-paying but your experience still sounds challenging to be honest. My own was terrible in many ways, but most of it was just neglectful, just s general lack of everything. Luckily I had great friends, some of whom I still count on, forty years later.
Thank you for writing this. I think a lot of children are really suffering.
Really great article and as a mum of 14 and 12 year old boys so much rings true despite them being at a reasonably decent Catholic secondary, not in a large city but largish town in the home counties. Your first two points really strike a chord and not just relating to secondary but at primary as well. My boys are both hard working and well behaved and have always had great feedback from teachers about their behavior yet since around yr3 they have both individually complained about the way boys are treated in school compared to girls, especially by the female teachers who not only punish the boys more harshly but also positively discriminate against the boys. I know there are many women who might say this is fine as its the way it's been for women for years but I can't help feeling that in an education setting we're going too far in the other direction and ultimately it's not going to have positive repercussions. Luckily this discrimination against boys, mainly by female teachers has not led to any backlash from them, mainly I think because of the role models we create at home and in our wider family circle, but I can see how this could not be the case for many. Thank you for such an insightful post. X
I think my sons sound similar to yours. They won’t retaliate or rock the boat, just suck it up. But the simmering resentment inside some boys, it has to go somewhere doesn’t it? If there’s no outlet at home to discuss it I wonder how they process spending every day feeling they’re bad. Like you say, it’s not a tit for tat argument. Just because it’s been one way doesn’t mean swinging it the opposite way is the answer.
Im not sure we saw the same “Adolescence” series and you seem to be relying for information from the perceptions of adolescent sons. I’d be interested in their views of Andrew Tate, incels and what they are learning from online porn.
Hi Clare, can you elaborate? What did you see in adolescence that is different? And yes I think I was clear stating that this is my experience based on my children and not a world view. Your comment feels quite aggressive - perhaps I am reading too much into it?
I won’t be interviewing them about online porn for this platform. That would be entirely inappropriate. What I will say is that I have talked about porn to my sons openly from a young age and discussed the % of female porn actors with a background of childhood sexual abuse, also that porn isn’t real sex so to speak etc etc.
I was just writing a long reply, had to break off writing and when I got back Substack has lost it!
Suffice it to say that I’m sorry I didn’t mean to be aggressive but I am frustrated and angered by the level of misogyny these days. Males excuse themselves for being violent to women, blaming the victim and the film did the same by giving the murderer a motive, an excuse - she attacked him online, told him he was an incel.
Friends with daughters or granddaughters are very scared for them
I too am frustrated by the level of misogyny these days. I’m not sure it’s ever been any better, more that we’re more aware of it now that social media allows people to spout their views.
It’s interesting that you felt Adolescence blamed the victim because she called the boy an incel online. That’s not how I read it. I felt it was blaming the parents for their complete lack of parenting of the boy and the father especially for being so incredibly toxic. I think I said this in the price I wrote. Can’t remember now!
I’m not sure we disagree in terms of our concerns. The price I wrote simply reports one set of views from one school that is similar to Adolescence. I personally feel we have to tackle the issues I wrote about for the good of both boys and girls.
I agree with a lot of this. My kids go to a really excellent sought-after state school in a rural area, but it still has its problems. I'm a parent of teenagers of both sexes so can see both sides. My son - bless him - is the sweetest, most well-behaved child who the teachers love but still feels he's treated unfairly compared to the girls and my daughter has confirmed that girls get away with more than boys. When something is unfair they absolutely have no right of reply - sometimes I have asked "why didn't you just say [insert perfectly reasonable explanation]" and the answer is that it would be instant detention for "arguing back".
And yes, a massive amount of the problems in schools comes from terrible parenting. It's an almost impossible task for teachers to deal with these kids and it's no wonder they're leaving the profession in droves. We have strict controls around screen time and social media for our kids and we're massively in the minority, even in a "nice" middle class area.
Gosh I feel like we are living very similar lives. I’ve had so many conversations where I’ve asked why they didn’t politely state what had happened and ask for help, but it results in more trouble I’m told, so it’s best to suck it up. And that’s from boys who are on the whole pretty well behaved, good students etc. If they feel silenced and misunderstood how do there ‘problematic’ kids feel?
And yes, hard agree on the lack of boundaries. I see the pings on my kids phones late, late at night. These are kids who come from very middle class families, their parents would definitely consider themselves to be role models. Where are they when their kids are online? Why are phones in their kids rooms? Why aren’t the phones being checked? I could scream.
Gosh it sounds very difficult at your kids school. I have 3 teens - 2 boys and a girl and the boys haven’t had any of these types of restrictions imposed on them. (Urban state school in Scotland). I think it would feel most unfair and counterproductive to be expecting this of boys but not saying the same to girls. Not really giving the right messages. We don’t have these restrictions on boys and yet fights are rare. I think it’s all about leadership and the ethos fostered by the school as well as at home.
It’s interesting hearing from other parents - there’s such a varied experience. Sadly I’ve had a lot of comments over on insta from parents going through the same experience. And the thing is I don’t think my son’s school is bad as such, not compared to some of the other options locally. Whilst there are clear issues with some secondary schools it all begins at home doesn’t it, well the foundations are set there.
I’ve always been most envious of the Scottish education system and your comment has reinforced my feelings.
Brilliant article! Very thought provoking and well written! While I love social media, and think its a great advancement for the world, the are too many "Tates" in this world, and youngsters are definitely impressionable.
Thanks! I think there have always been self styled cult like leaders, but never have we had to raise children in an environment where most spend so little time with their family. Pulling them closer is the answer to some of the problem I think. (I hope).
Great show, very important topic and a piece that makes a lot of good points.
It’s not easy to be a teenage boy. It’s also not easy to be a teenage girl. There are equally stereotypes around girls - they are bitchy or get off easier.
One of the most important points to me is around sex. If teenage boys are being pressured by other teenage boys into feeling they have to have sex, teenage girls are not to blame. They should be angry at those pressuring them not at the girls who don’t owe them sex.
The discussion and understanding about sex and consent starts at home doesn’t it. I remember at primary school another parent being horrified that I’d talked to my son about sex, porn and consent. As if by not discussing it he might somehow never see porn and miraculously understand how to approach the issue of what consent is, why saying nothing isn’t consent etc etc.
Been saying a lot of this for years. I did go to a “rough” huge secondary in the 1980’s. Things were the same then, except we didn’t have mobiles. What most people did have though were parents that gave a shit and you got discipline and role models at home. That’s what has changed. Most parents are like the ones in Adolescence. Terrifying.
I think they are. I hate being all ‘I’m better than they are’ but I just hear so much crappy parenting that I want to shake people. Maybe this is just us aging? Perhaps our parents felt the same?
Constant government interference has wreaked havoc on family life, while parents should be held accountable for abusing their children it’s got to the point where many have washed their hands trying to control them.
I don’t condone beating the crap out of your kids but when smacking was banned to be followed with children being able to report their parents for the slightest thing even if it wasn’t true. It’s left a lot of parents confused and stand off ish to actually parent in trying to have any control over their children, it’s no wonder so many have behavioural issues with no guidance or boundaries that were previously in such a small minority.
They’re de-humanised in so many ways, nowhere to keep their stuff, no showers or even drinking water after sport, lunch is gladiatorial, theft is rife. But it’s the no right of reply to chronic unfairness that wore down my kids. Luckily for mine we could give them a contrast and context at home. Others were just abandoned. Woeful.
Oh god yes the no right of reply is so problematic. It feels like a prison state - put up and shut up, keep your head down, get through it. I don’t remember this as my own experience but mine was a privileged one so I can’t truly compare.
It may have been fee-paying but your experience still sounds challenging to be honest. My own was terrible in many ways, but most of it was just neglectful, just s general lack of everything. Luckily I had great friends, some of whom I still count on, forty years later.
Thank you for writing this. I think a lot of children are really suffering.
They really are. I feel like someone younger and with more energy and less children needs to start a revolution.
Really great article and as a mum of 14 and 12 year old boys so much rings true despite them being at a reasonably decent Catholic secondary, not in a large city but largish town in the home counties. Your first two points really strike a chord and not just relating to secondary but at primary as well. My boys are both hard working and well behaved and have always had great feedback from teachers about their behavior yet since around yr3 they have both individually complained about the way boys are treated in school compared to girls, especially by the female teachers who not only punish the boys more harshly but also positively discriminate against the boys. I know there are many women who might say this is fine as its the way it's been for women for years but I can't help feeling that in an education setting we're going too far in the other direction and ultimately it's not going to have positive repercussions. Luckily this discrimination against boys, mainly by female teachers has not led to any backlash from them, mainly I think because of the role models we create at home and in our wider family circle, but I can see how this could not be the case for many. Thank you for such an insightful post. X
I think my sons sound similar to yours. They won’t retaliate or rock the boat, just suck it up. But the simmering resentment inside some boys, it has to go somewhere doesn’t it? If there’s no outlet at home to discuss it I wonder how they process spending every day feeling they’re bad. Like you say, it’s not a tit for tat argument. Just because it’s been one way doesn’t mean swinging it the opposite way is the answer.
Im not sure we saw the same “Adolescence” series and you seem to be relying for information from the perceptions of adolescent sons. I’d be interested in their views of Andrew Tate, incels and what they are learning from online porn.
Hi Clare, can you elaborate? What did you see in adolescence that is different? And yes I think I was clear stating that this is my experience based on my children and not a world view. Your comment feels quite aggressive - perhaps I am reading too much into it?
I won’t be interviewing them about online porn for this platform. That would be entirely inappropriate. What I will say is that I have talked about porn to my sons openly from a young age and discussed the % of female porn actors with a background of childhood sexual abuse, also that porn isn’t real sex so to speak etc etc.
I was just writing a long reply, had to break off writing and when I got back Substack has lost it!
Suffice it to say that I’m sorry I didn’t mean to be aggressive but I am frustrated and angered by the level of misogyny these days. Males excuse themselves for being violent to women, blaming the victim and the film did the same by giving the murderer a motive, an excuse - she attacked him online, told him he was an incel.
Friends with daughters or granddaughters are very scared for them
I too am frustrated by the level of misogyny these days. I’m not sure it’s ever been any better, more that we’re more aware of it now that social media allows people to spout their views.
It’s interesting that you felt Adolescence blamed the victim because she called the boy an incel online. That’s not how I read it. I felt it was blaming the parents for their complete lack of parenting of the boy and the father especially for being so incredibly toxic. I think I said this in the price I wrote. Can’t remember now!
I’m not sure we disagree in terms of our concerns. The price I wrote simply reports one set of views from one school that is similar to Adolescence. I personally feel we have to tackle the issues I wrote about for the good of both boys and girls.
I agree with a lot of this. My kids go to a really excellent sought-after state school in a rural area, but it still has its problems. I'm a parent of teenagers of both sexes so can see both sides. My son - bless him - is the sweetest, most well-behaved child who the teachers love but still feels he's treated unfairly compared to the girls and my daughter has confirmed that girls get away with more than boys. When something is unfair they absolutely have no right of reply - sometimes I have asked "why didn't you just say [insert perfectly reasonable explanation]" and the answer is that it would be instant detention for "arguing back".
And yes, a massive amount of the problems in schools comes from terrible parenting. It's an almost impossible task for teachers to deal with these kids and it's no wonder they're leaving the profession in droves. We have strict controls around screen time and social media for our kids and we're massively in the minority, even in a "nice" middle class area.
Gosh I feel like we are living very similar lives. I’ve had so many conversations where I’ve asked why they didn’t politely state what had happened and ask for help, but it results in more trouble I’m told, so it’s best to suck it up. And that’s from boys who are on the whole pretty well behaved, good students etc. If they feel silenced and misunderstood how do there ‘problematic’ kids feel?
And yes, hard agree on the lack of boundaries. I see the pings on my kids phones late, late at night. These are kids who come from very middle class families, their parents would definitely consider themselves to be role models. Where are they when their kids are online? Why are phones in their kids rooms? Why aren’t the phones being checked? I could scream.
Gosh it sounds very difficult at your kids school. I have 3 teens - 2 boys and a girl and the boys haven’t had any of these types of restrictions imposed on them. (Urban state school in Scotland). I think it would feel most unfair and counterproductive to be expecting this of boys but not saying the same to girls. Not really giving the right messages. We don’t have these restrictions on boys and yet fights are rare. I think it’s all about leadership and the ethos fostered by the school as well as at home.
It’s interesting hearing from other parents - there’s such a varied experience. Sadly I’ve had a lot of comments over on insta from parents going through the same experience. And the thing is I don’t think my son’s school is bad as such, not compared to some of the other options locally. Whilst there are clear issues with some secondary schools it all begins at home doesn’t it, well the foundations are set there.
I’ve always been most envious of the Scottish education system and your comment has reinforced my feelings.
Hi holly. I work in a school like adolescence- you make some excellent points. Can you come and sort my school out please?
Yes if you could just help organise the whole queen of the world thing… ;-)
Hahahaha… absolutely- leave it with me 😂
Brilliant article! Very thought provoking and well written! While I love social media, and think its a great advancement for the world, the are too many "Tates" in this world, and youngsters are definitely impressionable.
Thanks! I think there have always been self styled cult like leaders, but never have we had to raise children in an environment where most spend so little time with their family. Pulling them closer is the answer to some of the problem I think. (I hope).
Great show, very important topic and a piece that makes a lot of good points.
It’s not easy to be a teenage boy. It’s also not easy to be a teenage girl. There are equally stereotypes around girls - they are bitchy or get off easier.
One of the most important points to me is around sex. If teenage boys are being pressured by other teenage boys into feeling they have to have sex, teenage girls are not to blame. They should be angry at those pressuring them not at the girls who don’t owe them sex.
Yes to all of this.
The discussion and understanding about sex and consent starts at home doesn’t it. I remember at primary school another parent being horrified that I’d talked to my son about sex, porn and consent. As if by not discussing it he might somehow never see porn and miraculously understand how to approach the issue of what consent is, why saying nothing isn’t consent etc etc.
A fabulous post and was having exactly this conversation with my dad earlier
Thank you!
Been saying a lot of this for years. I did go to a “rough” huge secondary in the 1980’s. Things were the same then, except we didn’t have mobiles. What most people did have though were parents that gave a shit and you got discipline and role models at home. That’s what has changed. Most parents are like the ones in Adolescence. Terrifying.
I think they are. I hate being all ‘I’m better than they are’ but I just hear so much crappy parenting that I want to shake people. Maybe this is just us aging? Perhaps our parents felt the same?
Constant government interference has wreaked havoc on family life, while parents should be held accountable for abusing their children it’s got to the point where many have washed their hands trying to control them.
I don’t condone beating the crap out of your kids but when smacking was banned to be followed with children being able to report their parents for the slightest thing even if it wasn’t true. It’s left a lot of parents confused and stand off ish to actually parent in trying to have any control over their children, it’s no wonder so many have behavioural issues with no guidance or boundaries that were previously in such a small minority.