Wow Holly that's a shocker! We're the same age so I do remember office culture as a graduate in the early 00s but thankfully nothing as bad as your experiences. My daughter is half way through sixth form and considering advertising as a career after uni as she has a lot of skills that would suit it - arty, creative, good language/communication skills and she seems to have an innate understanding of what people want and what works well. Now I'm thinking I need to put her off that career path - do you think it's still awful?
Hello! What is your daughter going to study at uni and what are her expectations? Most nice clever girls with a solid English/history etc degree from a red brick go into account management - also called client servicing. It’s definitely portrayed as an area where you get to be all the things you mentioned but be warned it is not hugely creative. It’s being a mediator between the creative department and the client, and often spoken to in quite an unpleasant way. Creative teams can be very tricky. If she is hell bent on advertising then I’d suggest looking at the planning department as she will be using her brain more and making tea less. She will also spend less time being shouted at! But look, my experiences are from a few years back. Maybe it’s changed… what I do know is that the big bosses at agencies now are the men who were my peers and a lot of them were not exactly great at their jobs. They stuck around long enough and waited for the great women to have babies and not come back. The mouth rapist? He was head of a HUGE agency for years, employed a lot of people, very wealthy etc etc.
Thanks for your reply, some good food for thought. Currently trying to decide between history and psychology for uni, should get v good grades. Not hellbent on advertising at all, just thought it might be a good fit though she would definitely want to be on the creative/ideas side rather than account management. Scary how that guy ended up at the top, albeit sadly not surprising.
Almost all the art directors and copywriters work in teams of two and tend to get together as a 'creative team' at uni. A lot of them attend Bournemouth uni where there's a special course, or go to Goldsmiths/St Martins. It may have changed but the creative department is definitely not very heavy on folks from red bricks with degrees like history/psych. It may have changed of course! x
Hard questions to answer. At school I was spoddy but also liked Drama. Considered academia, acting or the Bar. Studied Classics. Did lots of acting at uni. When I got a 2.1 I thought academia was off limits and I also felt like a change. Nearly went to drama school but partly because I ended up not doing a play at the Playhouse as I didn’t want to do it in original Greek, I also ended up not going to drama school. I was steered away from it too because of the no pay etc. Back then it also felt like there were even fewer roles for women. I did the Law conversion and became a criminal barrister. Fun stories and characters but terrible travel . Just as crappy pay. I didn’t think it would work with kids. When I was newrly30 I worked for a regulator. Still doing the trials though. That regulator was recently investigated due to its toxic environment. I am not surprised. Then moved to a law firm. All ok despite a few nasty characters until I had to do IVF. Didn’t go down well. I then spent a year in house advising a recruitment company as a lawyer (I wanted PT work and it was going to be 3 days) when I finally had a child. I decided to leave to go to a cuddlier environment as I didn’t like the way lots of recruiters got the boot for missing KPIs. I worked in house for a charity which was set up by advertising execs. Successful global campaigns. Some of what you said was reminiscent. I had been writing poems for years but I started writing a book during this. I was made redundant two years ago. Tried a couple of law firms short term but they were horrendous.
I have written another book (historical fiction) and have sent to 5 or 6 agents but no bites yet.
Ideally I’d be writing and working PT too for cash. I have been trying hard but the last two years have been pretty horrendous.
Some people hate school. I didn’t love all aspects but the work bit I basically liked and was good at. But many workplaces have not only been dull or disappointing by comparison, they’ve not felt very safe spaces to be in. It has been a bit of a shock and whilst I want money and to be having human contact again the truth is I am scared of what it would be like. I have lost a lot of trust.
This is really interesting and whilst I am no life coach there are themes that scream out. It sounds like law was a red herring. You were attracted to it for the combination of cerebral rigour combined with performing maybe? It didn’t deliver on this front. Perhaps it’s time to put that to bed. You love to write, but haven’t had commercial success YET. Carry on! Do you need to earn money? I ask this as my aunt recently made the distinction between working and having money and it blew my mind. We need money but we don’t ‘need’ to work. Are you in a relationship/situation where earning is not essential? This could buy you time to think and retrain etc. I feel like you need to spend some time in and around theatres, could this be an avenue to look into? Exciting times - you are clearly very skilled but maybe you need to try an area where you’re starting again? A proper new challenge??
I am scared of totally starting again right now when I don’t know what to do and have lost quite a bit of trust. And don’t trust myself to make a decision. Especially as I’m in perimenopause and would love to avoid decisions. Unfortunately we do need the money. I do often wish I could rewind the clock . For now I continue to look for PT roles but I can see why you’re saying what you’re saying x
Well, what's that saying about gardens - the best time to plant them is 20 years ago and the next best time is now. So you still have a large part of your life left and the first part was all building to where you are now. If I were you I'd work out how much money I need to bring in and work back from there. x
What an incredible piece Holly. I wish I had the ability to spill beans as you’ve done. Some of what you wrote about shocked me but much of it didn’t and I’ve witnessed some pretty awful things too.
I’m so curious now - what happened after working for the ad agency. Was the midwifery training after that ? How did that morph into the writing ? I’m at a cross roads myself now - have been for a while. Annoyingly coincided with peri menopause. Have you written about the transitions away from here in other articles ?
Hi Joanna, what area have you worked in? It seems this kind of awful behaviour is pretty common in office environments.
The midwifery was straight from school - a 4 year degree though I only completed 1 year. I don’t regret it, it was an amazing experience, but I knew on day 1 it wasn’t for me. I switched to an English degree and then after graduation worked in advertising. And the writing? I’ve wanted to be a writer since I was a little girl, always plotting ideas. I’ve been trying and failing to write fiction all my life. I am finally committing to it after some success as a food blogger and then on here. I was on the Bake Off back in 2011 and though it opened many doors I do think it has pigeon holed me somewhat. I have a literary agent for eg, but for food writing.
What about you? What do you do now and where does your heart lay?
I'm horrified about the Facebook revelations, and horrified by your experiences in advertising.
I haven't had anything as bad as that, fortunately. When you mentioned signing the waiver to the working hours protection, I did roll my eyes though because I was told to do the same. I was a receptionist at a computer games distributor run by millionaires (in the late 90s, after dropping out of uni, saving up to start again and go back in). I didn't understand the document, and they said, "oh, but we'd never expect anyone to work that many hours." So why did they need us to sign? I didn't really want to sign it but felt I had no choice. I didn't want to get on the wrong side of my employers. It's worrying how many employees must've signed the waiver because they were forced to by bosses.
And the lapdancing: once I was back at uni, I temped in the "vacations" (they weren't holidays for me!). I was at a company that builds houses and converts old warehouses etc into apartments, and the head of the section I worked in took clients to a lapdancing club. I was disgusted. It's so sexist and "boys' club".
I never had to suffer any assaults, though. That's horrendous what you experienced and heard about going on. One of the staff at the distributors was sacked for looking up skirts at the work's Christmas party (which I'm relieved I didn't attend). And the directors got really angry when they discovered handprints on Lara Croft's boobs (the cleaners had neglected to dust her).
Yes why did they need you to sign it? It’s the ultimate in control isn’t it, and marking your card, ensuring you’re dedicated. They won’t make you work silly hours, they’re not monsters, but they reserve the right to do so if they wish. Arseholes!
The handprints on Crofts boobs - there’s so much about that… the fact some remedial dweeb thought it funny to feel up an imagined woman, the need to have her cleaned and dusted off by other women - like a sex toy, and the annoyance of the bosses that their creation had been defiled. I can’t even begin to form a coherent analysis! But it’s a lot, isn’t it?
Yeah, exactly, someone was groping a pretend woman!
I hated having to sit in the same room as her. When she first arrived, they tried to put her right in front of me and the desk, and I said no. Sorry, I don't want to spend all day, every day having to stare at her bum, inches from my face!
Also - that mannequin was the same height as me but her legs went as high as my navel. So she's a fantasy woman who doesn't have a womb.
Not one thing here surprised me in the slightest. I’ve lived through quite a few as well. You’re describing my experiences of a large corporate law firm in Manchester in early 90’s. Do you want to know something really depressing? NOTHING HAS CHANGED! It’s all about power. Men have such fragile egos. We were regularly groped in the open and expected to not just take it, but be grateful for the attention. Offices are just toxic workplaces.
Wow Holly that's a shocker! We're the same age so I do remember office culture as a graduate in the early 00s but thankfully nothing as bad as your experiences. My daughter is half way through sixth form and considering advertising as a career after uni as she has a lot of skills that would suit it - arty, creative, good language/communication skills and she seems to have an innate understanding of what people want and what works well. Now I'm thinking I need to put her off that career path - do you think it's still awful?
Hello! What is your daughter going to study at uni and what are her expectations? Most nice clever girls with a solid English/history etc degree from a red brick go into account management - also called client servicing. It’s definitely portrayed as an area where you get to be all the things you mentioned but be warned it is not hugely creative. It’s being a mediator between the creative department and the client, and often spoken to in quite an unpleasant way. Creative teams can be very tricky. If she is hell bent on advertising then I’d suggest looking at the planning department as she will be using her brain more and making tea less. She will also spend less time being shouted at! But look, my experiences are from a few years back. Maybe it’s changed… what I do know is that the big bosses at agencies now are the men who were my peers and a lot of them were not exactly great at their jobs. They stuck around long enough and waited for the great women to have babies and not come back. The mouth rapist? He was head of a HUGE agency for years, employed a lot of people, very wealthy etc etc.
Thanks for your reply, some good food for thought. Currently trying to decide between history and psychology for uni, should get v good grades. Not hellbent on advertising at all, just thought it might be a good fit though she would definitely want to be on the creative/ideas side rather than account management. Scary how that guy ended up at the top, albeit sadly not surprising.
Almost all the art directors and copywriters work in teams of two and tend to get together as a 'creative team' at uni. A lot of them attend Bournemouth uni where there's a special course, or go to Goldsmiths/St Martins. It may have changed but the creative department is definitely not very heavy on folks from red bricks with degrees like history/psych. It may have changed of course! x
Hard questions to answer. At school I was spoddy but also liked Drama. Considered academia, acting or the Bar. Studied Classics. Did lots of acting at uni. When I got a 2.1 I thought academia was off limits and I also felt like a change. Nearly went to drama school but partly because I ended up not doing a play at the Playhouse as I didn’t want to do it in original Greek, I also ended up not going to drama school. I was steered away from it too because of the no pay etc. Back then it also felt like there were even fewer roles for women. I did the Law conversion and became a criminal barrister. Fun stories and characters but terrible travel . Just as crappy pay. I didn’t think it would work with kids. When I was newrly30 I worked for a regulator. Still doing the trials though. That regulator was recently investigated due to its toxic environment. I am not surprised. Then moved to a law firm. All ok despite a few nasty characters until I had to do IVF. Didn’t go down well. I then spent a year in house advising a recruitment company as a lawyer (I wanted PT work and it was going to be 3 days) when I finally had a child. I decided to leave to go to a cuddlier environment as I didn’t like the way lots of recruiters got the boot for missing KPIs. I worked in house for a charity which was set up by advertising execs. Successful global campaigns. Some of what you said was reminiscent. I had been writing poems for years but I started writing a book during this. I was made redundant two years ago. Tried a couple of law firms short term but they were horrendous.
I have written another book (historical fiction) and have sent to 5 or 6 agents but no bites yet.
Ideally I’d be writing and working PT too for cash. I have been trying hard but the last two years have been pretty horrendous.
Some people hate school. I didn’t love all aspects but the work bit I basically liked and was good at. But many workplaces have not only been dull or disappointing by comparison, they’ve not felt very safe spaces to be in. It has been a bit of a shock and whilst I want money and to be having human contact again the truth is I am scared of what it would be like. I have lost a lot of trust.
This is really interesting and whilst I am no life coach there are themes that scream out. It sounds like law was a red herring. You were attracted to it for the combination of cerebral rigour combined with performing maybe? It didn’t deliver on this front. Perhaps it’s time to put that to bed. You love to write, but haven’t had commercial success YET. Carry on! Do you need to earn money? I ask this as my aunt recently made the distinction between working and having money and it blew my mind. We need money but we don’t ‘need’ to work. Are you in a relationship/situation where earning is not essential? This could buy you time to think and retrain etc. I feel like you need to spend some time in and around theatres, could this be an avenue to look into? Exciting times - you are clearly very skilled but maybe you need to try an area where you’re starting again? A proper new challenge??
I am scared of totally starting again right now when I don’t know what to do and have lost quite a bit of trust. And don’t trust myself to make a decision. Especially as I’m in perimenopause and would love to avoid decisions. Unfortunately we do need the money. I do often wish I could rewind the clock . For now I continue to look for PT roles but I can see why you’re saying what you’re saying x
Well, what's that saying about gardens - the best time to plant them is 20 years ago and the next best time is now. So you still have a large part of your life left and the first part was all building to where you are now. If I were you I'd work out how much money I need to bring in and work back from there. x
What an incredible piece Holly. I wish I had the ability to spill beans as you’ve done. Some of what you wrote about shocked me but much of it didn’t and I’ve witnessed some pretty awful things too.
I’m so curious now - what happened after working for the ad agency. Was the midwifery training after that ? How did that morph into the writing ? I’m at a cross roads myself now - have been for a while. Annoyingly coincided with peri menopause. Have you written about the transitions away from here in other articles ?
Hi Joanna, what area have you worked in? It seems this kind of awful behaviour is pretty common in office environments.
The midwifery was straight from school - a 4 year degree though I only completed 1 year. I don’t regret it, it was an amazing experience, but I knew on day 1 it wasn’t for me. I switched to an English degree and then after graduation worked in advertising. And the writing? I’ve wanted to be a writer since I was a little girl, always plotting ideas. I’ve been trying and failing to write fiction all my life. I am finally committing to it after some success as a food blogger and then on here. I was on the Bake Off back in 2011 and though it opened many doors I do think it has pigeon holed me somewhat. I have a literary agent for eg, but for food writing.
What about you? What do you do now and where does your heart lay?
PS sorry if tmi ! X
I'm horrified about the Facebook revelations, and horrified by your experiences in advertising.
I haven't had anything as bad as that, fortunately. When you mentioned signing the waiver to the working hours protection, I did roll my eyes though because I was told to do the same. I was a receptionist at a computer games distributor run by millionaires (in the late 90s, after dropping out of uni, saving up to start again and go back in). I didn't understand the document, and they said, "oh, but we'd never expect anyone to work that many hours." So why did they need us to sign? I didn't really want to sign it but felt I had no choice. I didn't want to get on the wrong side of my employers. It's worrying how many employees must've signed the waiver because they were forced to by bosses.
And the lapdancing: once I was back at uni, I temped in the "vacations" (they weren't holidays for me!). I was at a company that builds houses and converts old warehouses etc into apartments, and the head of the section I worked in took clients to a lapdancing club. I was disgusted. It's so sexist and "boys' club".
I never had to suffer any assaults, though. That's horrendous what you experienced and heard about going on. One of the staff at the distributors was sacked for looking up skirts at the work's Christmas party (which I'm relieved I didn't attend). And the directors got really angry when they discovered handprints on Lara Croft's boobs (the cleaners had neglected to dust her).
Yes why did they need you to sign it? It’s the ultimate in control isn’t it, and marking your card, ensuring you’re dedicated. They won’t make you work silly hours, they’re not monsters, but they reserve the right to do so if they wish. Arseholes!
The handprints on Crofts boobs - there’s so much about that… the fact some remedial dweeb thought it funny to feel up an imagined woman, the need to have her cleaned and dusted off by other women - like a sex toy, and the annoyance of the bosses that their creation had been defiled. I can’t even begin to form a coherent analysis! But it’s a lot, isn’t it?
Yeah, exactly, someone was groping a pretend woman!
I hated having to sit in the same room as her. When she first arrived, they tried to put her right in front of me and the desk, and I said no. Sorry, I don't want to spend all day, every day having to stare at her bum, inches from my face!
Also - that mannequin was the same height as me but her legs went as high as my navel. So she's a fantasy woman who doesn't have a womb.
Ugh, akin to when they show what a Barbie doll would look like if she were a real woman.
Yes, it was just like that! Now I come to think of it, the blokes were a bit leery at thx mannequin. She's not even real!
Not one thing here surprised me in the slightest. I’ve lived through quite a few as well. You’re describing my experiences of a large corporate law firm in Manchester in early 90’s. Do you want to know something really depressing? NOTHING HAS CHANGED! It’s all about power. Men have such fragile egos. We were regularly groped in the open and expected to not just take it, but be grateful for the attention. Offices are just toxic workplaces.
I so wish things had moved on but I think (from what I hear) it’s just more secretive. What’s better? Neither! Glad we got out.